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Who's looking after the retail investor?


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investbullbear
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 Posting #21: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 10:23

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Moolah wrote:


However, as I have mentioned, the interpretation and the data itself is part of the issue. Let's not talk earnings and focus on the issue of the P in this equation. P or Price is forever so dynamic.

Which price reference would you suggest to use as the indicator?

rgds


Just for discussion, let us assume that we looked at the KLCI composite index stocks.  We use the total TTM earnings as E, and the daily price as P.  Do you perceive the overall market PE a useful guide for some situations?

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Moolah
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 Posting #22: Wed Feb 14th, 2007 10:27

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I do believe that it can be a good guide. However, in a volative market where the market prices are either rising or falling, the accuracy of the data itself becomes a major issue.



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Jeffrey
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 Posting #23: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 01:02

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Hello, all,

IMHO, PE is a guide. I dont think it is carved in stone. An indication of how far away from book value the price is, which ever method you use. I like ( local markets dont show this yet) forward PERs, it gives an indication of what the price should be three months down the road as compared to what the price is actually being traded. (Or in the past )

Lets remind ourselves, (me included) that the price P as you mentioned above, is the price you pay inclusive of the premium in which you believe is fair value at that moment in time of purchase. (This factors in the volatility / market sentiment at the moment of trade.)

Then as sentiments change for the better or worse, the price will adjust itself accordingly. IE your PE will also work itself in the same direction.

What it all boils down to is, to understand the tools you are operating with and what its limitations / advantages are.

Last edited on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 01:06 by Jeffrey

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 Posting #24: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 01:37

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I like ( local markets dont show this yet) forward PERs, it gives an indication of what the price should be three months down the road as compared to what the price is actually being traded. (Or in the past )

Hi Jeffery,

I this idea too.. but let's be realistic... it's too difficult to implement. Take a forward pe 3 month or 6 months or 9 months or even 12 months down the road. No problem. Whatever time frame is fine with me but just how do we determine the E in this? Each individual or each firm has their own projections of the E for each company. And here in lies the problem. Some are way too optmistic and some are simply too pessimistic. How?

And yes, P stands for the price you paid. But what if you have not purchase the stock yet? Wouldn't the P then simply be ever changing especially in a hot live market like now.

Like i said... i like the idea... but... i see the immense difficulty in creating such a yardstick and most of all, the accuracy of the yardstick itself.

Btw.. investing is not about yardsticks, isn't it?

cheers!



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 Posting #25: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 01:52

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If you watch Bloomberg, they will announce what the Company's projected earnings are as opposed to what itsactual earnings turn out to be. This is immediately affect the price, adjusting to the most recent news. I guess this is so that the price does not run away in the direction of black tulips in Hollland many years ago.

Yes, they are only yardsticks, nothing carved in stone.

And its Jeffrey, Moula! Happy Chinese New Year!

Moolah
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 Posting #26: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 02:03

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If you watch Bloomberg, they will announce what the Company's projected earnings are as opposed to what itsactual earnings turn out to be.

Ah, that's very true. Those are them consensus numbers. Nothing more.

And it's not too nice to see the market turning companies into a beat the consensus kind of game. There are so many ill effects. Companies fudging numbers to beat the numbers set by others and sometimes it has been proven the existance of numbers set so low to ensure the company beating it.

And even then...  we have seen beating these numbers does not gurantee upsides to the stock price. Guidance too is very important.

All in.. i reckon it's a circus out there. :s25:



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 Posting #27: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 04:31

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Jeffrey wrote: Hello, all,

IMHO, PE is a guide. I dont think it is carved in stone. An indication of how far away from book value the price is, which ever method you use. I like ( local markets dont show this yet) forward PERs, it gives an indication of what the price should be three months down the road as compared to what the price is actually being traded. (Or in the past )



PE is an expression of the company's value as a multiple of earnings.  My understanding of PE of a company might be:

1.  A measure of confidence in a company's ability to add value and make money, thus producing earnings.

2.  A measure of time.  With no growth, the PE would actually represent the number of years it would take to recover one's investment.

3.  A measure of value.  A company's ability to earn, or to grow its earnings, can be tied to its fair market value ("reasonable" PE), the price at which you will find a willing buyer and a willing seller.

4.  A forecasting tool.  Over the life of a company, the "normal" relationship between a company's earnings and its stock's price is relatively constant; and for this reason it's also remarkably predictable. The little fluctuations in the PE above and below that constant value are not so predictable because they are all caused by investor perception and opinion.  The broader moves above and below the norm are typically caused by the continuous rising and falling of analysts' expectations.  Those PEs risen above or fallen below the norm reflected investor confidence and perception, and will eventually be adjusted towards the norm.

Will knowing the PE of the whole market be useful to investors?

08.2.07  PE 19.58  KLCI 1248.83

31.1.07  PE 18.70  KLCI 1189.35

23.2.06  PE 14.81  KLCI  927.51

Ref: data from iCap

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 Posting #28: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 06:48

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I like to quote a whole page from Curtisn Montgomery's Sun Tzu on Investing.

** do not get wrong .. this is a mere second opinion. A page from a book which I believe makes very interesting reading and investing sense too - me just hope this page offers a whole new thinking for investors**

Look for the right stock, not the right market



A policeman is walking his beat on a dark, foggy night. He comes to a corner with a single street lamp tat throws off just enough light tho provide a small beacon in the surrounding shadows. At the base of the lamp is a man on his hands and knees searching about. He's evidently drunk. The policeman approaches the poor fool and asks what's he doing. The man continues looking at the pavement and responds, 'I'm looking for my keys!'. So the policman, a kind sort, begins instinctively to help in the search. After several minutes and no sign of the keys finally the poileman asks, 'Where exactly do you believe you dropped the keys?'. The drunk replies, 'A couple of blocks down the street, near my favourite pub.''A couple of blocks away!' the polieman shouts in amazement, 'Then why are you looking for them here?' The drunk instantly replies, 'What are you kidding, the light's so much better here!'

An old story but so many equity investors search for stocks the same way the poor drunk looks for his keys, devoid of logic, but where the light is best. The light always shine most brightly on popular businesses in exciting market sectors/ Don't be scared of the fog or the dark. Don't associate winning investments with popular investments any more than Sun Tzu would associate the motion of the rock instead of the mountain. Popular industries don't create shareholder wealth, well-managed businesses with superior economics do - especially when purchased at bargain prices.

Many investors spend too much time analyzing the past instead of simply learning general market tendencies of the past, especially as it applies to investing psychology. Painstaking analysis of past market trends will not make you a better investor because the future never precisely mirrors the past.

There was once a Mayan Indian tribe in South America who passed through the generations a myth about the futility of using past occurrences to project future actions. The legend spoke of the universe being destroyed four times and everytime the Mayans learned a sad lesson and vowed to be better prepared the next time - but always for the previous catastrophe. First there was a flood, and the survivors remembered it and rebuilt the city on higher ground in the woods instead of along the river shore. Their efforts were wasted because the next village was destroyed by fire.  The survivors remembered the flood and the fire and rebuilt the city out of stone, which was a waste of time because the next natural disaster was an earthquake that crumbled the stone buildings. Wherever the Mayans chose to rebuild, whatever materials they chose for their homes, they were always looking through the rear view mirror and suceptible to a changing future. The solution to such a problem is to simultaneously learn from the past and consider an uncertain future.

For the stockpicker, even if the future could be seen with clarity from the perspective of the economic conditins, interest rates and market performance - you are still left to select individual investments, which is just as challenging as if you had no special powers of foresight. Therefore your future assessment is best limited to specific projections of individual businesses.

As soon as you move your attention from business fundamentals (the mountain) to price movement patterns or other illogical superstitions (the rocks), investing will become frustrating. You will feel like Chinese philosopher Yung-Chia as he struggled to describe perfection: "It is only when you hunt for it that you lose it; you cannot hold it. But equally, you cannot get rid of it, and while you can do neitherm it goes on its own way." Intelligent investments are all around you, yet they are so difficult to identify. In the words of Zen master Daito, "We are facing each other all along the way, yet we have never met."
 



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 Posting #29: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 07:53

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You said,
1. measure of confidence
2. measure of time
3. value
4. forecasting tool
and quoted the PE at 08-02-07, with the KLCI at 1248.83, is 19.58.

You must be wondering what confidence? At the point when the PE was worked out? In a bull market? Of course time is the multiple. Hence the value. Such is the forcasting tool. Everything is hunky dory, as long as the rainbow is right in front of you. The bull.

Now, comes a bear, (be it a short term bear raid or a really long bear period.) What happens to your confidence, and time and value, they will be revised downwards, correct?

So, its all in the frame of mind. "We are facing each other all along the way, yet we never met."

Try out the overbought and oversold indicator on some counters. You will be amazed to see that some counters bust the overbought mark and still there are loads of buyers, and same story on the other side. Players have been known to bail out even good sound shares on rumors.
And buy humdingers as well.

So what is the use of the PE? As an indicator. No more, no less. Its what you see that matters. (And how you react to it.)

True, in developed market, they would give you a rough mark of what is asound buy at what PE, (some between 15-20) or with X% growth rate. Look at the local market, do we have that kind of growth in the last six- eight months when the bull really started to get off?

What do you think? Where is the PE with today's prices? Is it real, you may ask youself? The figures you are holding right now is three months old.

Last edited on Thu Feb 15th, 2007 07:59 by Jeffrey

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 Posting #30: Thu Feb 15th, 2007 09:30

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Jeffrey wrote: So what is the use of the PE? As an indicator. No more, no less. Its what you see that matters. (And how you react to it.)

True, in developed market, they would give you a rough mark of what is asound buy at what PE, (some between 15-20) or with X% growth rate. Look at the local market, do we have that kind of growth in the last six- eight months when the bull really started to get off?

What do you think? Where is the PE with today's prices? Is it real, you may ask youself? The figures you are holding right now is three months old.


Agree.  You probably provided some answers to the use of the PE of the whole market. 

One is always looking to buy a stock at a price which offers less downside risk than upside gain.  It will be easier to find such stocks in a market where the PE was in the lower range of the normal.  As the PE of the whole market gets higher, the downside risk is greater than the upside gain for most stocks.  A defensive (less knowledgeable investor) may wish to sell and stay off the market.  An enterprising investor may still be able to pick selective stocks that are of value or undervalue, although these will be increasingly fewer in the later part of a bull run.

Among the reasons for the present bull run mentioned by an analyst in CNBC today are:

1.  our Malaysian market was undervalued (due to out of favour the last few years) and the present expansion in PE was a readjustment of the market to fair valuation,

2.  the "bad time" befalling Thailand has led to flight of capital from that country to Malaysia which is now perceived favourably.

Once again, we will need to be reminded that the change in price or PE of a stock, sector or market, not related to earnings will not be sustained.  For this, we would need to look at the current earning season announcements.


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